Matthew Burgess is a poet and author whose picture books include Enormous Smallness: A Story of E.E. Cummings, Drawing on Walls: A Story of Keith Haring, and As Edward Imagined: A Story of Edward Gorey in Three Acts. In addition, Burgess is a professor of literature and creative writing at Brooklyn College and has led poetry programs in New York City public schools. He divides his time between Brooklyn and Berlin. A 2015 Sendak Fellow, Doug Salati is the author-illustrator of Hot Dog, for which he received the 2023 Caldecott Medal and the Ezra Jack Keats Illustrator Award. He resides in Brooklyn. Burgess and Salati spoke with each other via Zoom about their collaboration on Words with Wings and Magic Things—an illustrated poetry collection in the spirit of Shel Silverstein—and the liberating power of verse.

Matthew Burgess: We began this collaboration almost immediately after meeting each other for the first time in February 2020, about one month before the Covid lockdowns. I remember asking you what you wanted to work on, and you replied that you were interested in illustrating poems.

Doug Salati: Yes. And you said something to effect of, “I’ve got poems!”

Burgess: I had been looking at your portfolio online and I know a good thing when I see it. What is it about illustrating poetry that drew you in?

Salati: I liked the opportunity to illustrate a brief, little story—and then that moment is over, and you’re moving on to the next thing. So in that way, it was a different format than a picture book, where you usually commit to one character and you stay with them, from beginning to end. What I liked about the poetry was the sense of freedom.

Burgess: Yes, I was waiting for you to say freedom.

Salati: I knew it could be playful and with a lot of visual variety and a lot of freedom in terms of the individual pictures. I think there was something about being able to jump from one poem to another, to bounce around. To see what happens. And so just in terms of the process of making it, it always felt fresh. I was continually getting hit with new possibilities for each poem.

Burgess: Even as you’re talking about it, your hands are dancing, your body’s moving.

Salati: I think of music. I think of lyrics. I think of the voice singing. That’s my relationship to poetry, or at least to the poems that I remember reading as a kid. You could read them to yourself in your head, but I think of them as something to be declared. What is it that draws you to poetry?

Burgess: Freedom is a big part of it. I love telling stories, but within the machinery of a story, especially within the economy of a picture book, you often don’t have the space to explore small moments and flights of language without the pressure of plot on your shoulders. There is a lot of space to play with poetry. And our collaboration was so playful from start to finish—the back-and-forth volley.

Salati: It was so much fun. I think one of the things that really blew my mind was the speed and the intensity at which you started producing.

Burgess: A delightful avalanche. Part of it was that we were in lockdown, and I was alone for a few months, and to fully immerse myself in a creative project was the best possible medicine. I could write a poem, send it over, and you would reply with a sketch. When you have someone who’s receiving your drafts and laughing or drawing in response, then you’re like, Well, yeah, let’s go. It was a dance—and I hope it has a similar effect on readers.

Salati: I want the pictures to be a little catalyst for kids to see that writing poems and drawing pictures is a way to transport yourself to and create new worlds, and to have a lot of fun. It’s something that you can do anytime.

Burgess: Agreed! In magical terms, I see it as a kind of spell to quicken the readers’ creative impulse. My favorite artists have this effect on me—of making me want to make.

Salati: That’s it. That’s what your poetry did for me: I want to draw this, or I want to see what this looks like. I hope it will spark that same curiosity in readers. If it gets them jazzed about poetry or drawing, that would be so great.

Burgess: To give readers that feeling of permission and freedom—that’s the wish. That’s the dream.

Words with Wings and Magic Things by Matthew Burgess, illus. by Doug Salati. Tundra, $19.99 Mar. 18 ISBN 978-1-77488-028-9